Nancy Fouts Interview with MC Llamas, Spring 2014

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INTERVIEWER: So, do you believe in God?

NANCY FOUTS: No.

INTERVIEWER: No? What do you believe in if not got God?

NANCY FOUTS: I believe you’re going to die?

INTERVIEWER: So you believe in death?

NANCY FOUTS: Oh sure, I’ve got a lot of samples of that. You know, I was brought up a Baptist, that means a real, kind of, holy roller, it means I was baptised totally under the water, you know, totally. It’s a very southern kind of religion. I know everything, I went to Bible school, I went to Christian camps, my mother was a very big believer. And then she grew up and I grew up, and then they went away to Africa, Singapore, Vietnam and all over the world. So, you know, in a way, knowing that all the stories about Christian Bible stories, it’s something I play with, you know, I like it, it’s stimuli, I’m not always trying to take the piss out of it, you know. But, I can’t believe, when the world’s such a mess, when such horrible things happen, that there is a God. It’s a good idea, it helps people get through, but not me. I believe in people more, as much as they’re good and really bad. Yes, so that’s, that’s, do you believe in Jesus? Err, do you believe in God?

INTERVIEWER: I believe in a supreme force.

NANCY FOUTS: I could say yes to that too. You know, and it’s like in the really day to day living, you don’t ask much, you forget. But imagine if I had lost my sight and my hands and all my loved ones, I mean, jeez, I would invent something, I would need to have some faith in God help me stuff. Probably on my death bed I’ll change my mind, I’ll say, “I’m sorry, I take it back, I take it back.”

INTERVIEWER: Do you feel that the act of working on a piece relating to Jesus brings you closer to him, or helps you understand his life?

NANCY FOUTS: Again, no, no, no. I guess what I see when I am imitating a face or a figure of Christ is I’ve removed that spiritual feeling from him and I’m just using the symbol without even thinking of the suffering, as like you would play with an apple. An apple, you know, what haven’t we done with an apple, it’s the same thing. But I’m very guarded that I don’t make it really awful or sacrilegious. Somebody stole something once from the gallery and they said, “How can you take the name of Jesus so flippant?” You know, I said, “Ah, who said it was Jesus? They crucified a lot of people.” You know, they had crosses from Naples to Rome, all the time people were crucified, so, hmm – 

INTERVIEWER: All the slaves and –

NANCY FOUTS: Yeah, and Spartacus’s men and bad people, and good people, and, so that’s…

INTERVIEWER: The story of Jesus. 

NANCY FOUTS: But usually it’s what the painter or sculptor, or whoever, had, you know, whatever’s inspired me, I’m looking more at the person who painted the picture, not what it is I see.

INTERVIEWER: What has made you participate into this project?

NANCY FOUTS: I want to be in with the big boys.

NANCY FOUTS: Don’t quote me. Well, it’s isn’t every day you’re offered a place in a church, and I do think that brings magic to the objects on show. There, you could be moved and, you know, the jokette about my work, this is one is he’s praying to God to not let him fall, it’s a wonderful thing humour. You know, it is what, I mean, when you light up with a smile, that is spiritual, it could be, it could be, and that’s what I like about this image in its church place. That normally it’s oh dear me, Christ, save my soul, and it’s all sad, heavy God. But, you know, like I went to boarding school, as I said it was Baptist, but they were Church of England and when lent came, I’d never seen it before, but every day they walked down with the choir with their lovely brass cross. And then one day they walked down the aisle with a black silk thing over it, the shock, it shocked me, I didn’t know that they covered up a cross during lent, you know, like before Easter. And, you know, that was potent, I remember that as a, sort of, a spiritual Christ thing, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I see. So, you know that people are going to pray at the pieces, so how do feel about people praying to work?

NANCY FOUTS: I don’t think they will be able to.

INTERVIEWER: They won’t?

NANCY FOUTS: No. I want them to, if anything, pray, maybe they join in with the fun of the image in that, “Oh God, I hope that painting doesn’t fall,” but that’s asking a bit much. I just want them to smile. I think the other images you described, they’re serious and maybe they will have a reaction, praying or… But then again, it’s a, you know, like some of the black Jesus, the electric chair, that’ll wake them up.

INTERVIEWER: Yes. 

NANCY FOUTS: My role, to make them, I hope, smile and that they’ll see the joke. And that is another feeling, feeling.

INTERVIEWER: It is, it’s an emotion, it’s a spiritual response to something, to a vision.

NANCY FOUTS: Yeah. You know, when Easter’s over and halleluiah, God has risen, that’s a happy time, you know. So happy is in the church, it’s just slightly removed from funny [laughs], but it’s the same feeling, I think, yeah.

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, brilliant. And how do you feel about your work being exhibited in the underground?

NANCY FOUTS: Oh, I think that is the showcase for everybody, everybody, it’s like the Selfridges thing. I mean, I’ve snuck around there and looked at people, and they’re taking pictures and they’re loving it, and they’re taking pictures, and it is not displaying cosmetics or, you know. So on the underground, as long as that Jesus is skewwhiff, it’s great. For years, you know, prior to being an artist, I was a commercial artist for Silk Cut and everything, and the best ads at the best time I made the models of, so I’m used to seeing my work outside. And then, all I want to do is have people see it, you know, and how do you see work, how many people go to a little gallery in Soho? Not that many. So to have it on the underground is great. You know, years ago I did a poster, Tate by Tube, it’s famous. It’s got oil paints making the map of the tube, and that was all over London, and people like it, they like it. 

INTERVIEWER: It seems the reaction again, it makes them laugh 

NANCY FOUTS: Not only that, the strength of them when they’re mixed in with these crummy ads, they stand out, you know, there is a reaction or you look twice, or something. That’s really good.

INTERVIEWER: Absolutely

NANCY FOUTS: It’s a lovely idea that guy’s got. 

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, art below. Do you think that the act of art making could be associated to the Christ’s trial?

NANCY FOUTS: Hmm, hmm.

INTERVIEWER: No? Like, is there some part of suffering or pain whilst making one – 

NANCY FOUTS: Oh, a pain, every day I’m scared.

INTERVIEWER: You’re scared?

NANCY FOUTS: I could relate, if Jesus getting crucified, of course he was, he even cried out of his father, didn’t he? He said, “Lord, save me,” or something. But, no, I don’t really.

INTERVIEWER: Okay. Do you believe that your art is more sacred or profane?

NANCY FOUTS: I wouldn’t use either one those, it’s always in the eye of the beholder, isn’t it? It might be nice for somebody else to feel, that really gets it, you know, the bird on the pipe downstairs. I mean, people go, “Oh, silly,” you know, or the bird on the hand grenade, you identify with the little bird, or whatever, as it were human, or like a kid didn’t know if you pulled out the plug of a hand grenade it’s going to explode. So other people can have it, but I think making it is always practical, you know, I want it at this angle, and you’d get away from the romantic dream potency of it. But when it’s finished, that makes me just blow. Or even a sketch of an idea, that is a fucking good idea, like the exit Jesus, I’ve had that for years.

INTERVIEWER: Oh, have you?

NANCY FOUTS: You know, I’ll show my little sketch book. That, that the joy, the spiritual thing of doing it was getting it done and seeing it the way I want it, that lifts me up. 

INTERVIEWER: Okay, brilliant. When was the time in your life when you felt the closest to a supreme force? Like a miracle – 

NANCY FOUTS: Have you ever had one of those?

INTERVIEWER: Or uplifting, experience of death? Yeah.

NANCY FOUTS: My mother died recently, but don’t put that in because I don’t  know about it, and my sister was dealing with it, and she’d been senile for three years, like she didn’t know who she was or anything. And my sister’s a writer and she, sort of, said something like, you know, in some memorial thing said, “Great news, my finally made her wedding weight, mother died at 119lb which is the same weight she weighed when she got married.” And I thought, “This is not funny, no, that’s too slight.” And then I heard, I said, “So, is there a funeral? I’m not coming,” it’s in Seattle. I’m not coming to a funeral of my mother because, well, she doesn’t know that you’ve already cremated the body and we have the ashes. You know, here was this Christian girl brought up really strict, really Christian, couldn’t even swim in the same swimming pool as boys when she was little. And she grew up enough that, you know, her will said, “I do not want a funeral, I want to be cremated and the ashes go out in the bay.” And I, you know, so I looked to feel emotional but I was quite relieved, that since the time she didn’t have her brain she should have just died sooner or, you know, it’s okay, it’s okay. And my ex-husband died too about two years ago, and that one got me big time, sort of, the feeling of a lot of guilt.

INTERVIEWER: Why guilt?

NANCY FOUTS: Well, I divorced him, didn’t I? But it had nothing to do with him having pancreatic cancer, some people thought he was unhappy but it’s not true, I know he wasn’t unhappy. So I got to say, this is a serious question, I look to feel, I look to try to find it, no, I don’t. 

INTERVIEWER: No, okay. 

NANCY FOUTS: All my answers are no.

INTERVIEWER: Sorry? No, but that’s brilliant actually, that’s what we want because, like, it gives an expression of it. How many people can you trust?

NANCY FOUTS: Oh Jesus, I trust everybody, I do, I go down the road, I’ll trust anybody. And, you know, like somebody’d say, “Oh, London’s getting very dangerous, aren’t you frightened of being robbed but… I say, “No, I’m not, never.”

INTERVIEWER: Safe and, yeah, it’s like self-trust before everything.

NANCY FOUTS: Yeah. And, you know, I’ve seen guys sleeping in my car and I opened the door and I say, “What are you doing in my car?” And because it’s not aggressive, I think everybody has just the same sort of thing really, and some came through really fucked up, but underneath, unless they’re psychos, I don’t bump into them very much, I trust people, yes.

INTERVIEWER: Yes. And how do you think the life of Christ relates to yours?

NANCY FOUTS: The storytelling?

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, the storytelling.

NANCY FOUTS: I read a book recently and the story, some Russian guy, Nabokov?

INTERVIEWER: Yes.

NANCY FOUTS: And, you know, in the story about the cat and the funnies, they rewrite the story of the crucifix, he was, you know, Pontius Pilot didn’t really want to make him condemned to death, he wanted to use the other boys, you know. And then so he, sort of, rewrote the way it happened because there’s, surely after all this time, it’s not correct, it isn’t literal, I mean, we know that. And, by the way, all this stuff about the Catholic Church and paedophiles and Jesus and…

INTERVIEWER: What do you think of that in relation to the story of Christ?

NANCY FOUTS: Oh, it’s so sick. You know, what it is is the Indian, Spanish inquisition, the killing, for the church to be the Vatican, to have power; it’s not much to do with Christian living, is it? It’s too, too velvet.

INTERVIEWER: Too velvet? Do you trust the church?

NANCY FOUTS: Which one?

INTERVIEWER: Church, Catholic – 

NANCY FOUTS: You know, institutions, not much. Do you?

INTERVIEWER: I’m not sure. I think it gives a structure for people to work around and therefore, a mind and some sort of moral idea of how to live, but do you think the church is a good structure?

NANCY FOUTS: Again, I say no, not necessarily. Remember, I went to Sunday school every Sunday, I remember going up the steps thinking, “I’m 11,” you know, ten fingers and one more. I’m sure, I’m sure if I had never ever gone to church all I would miss would be the way, you know, the stories and the rules and the Ten Commandments, and the Lord’s Prayer, and those things. But I hope that, you know, living in life with people, you come out with the same degree of caring, not out of guilt, not because you were told, because you feel it, that’s it, that’s it.

INTERVIEWER: So a self-moral, rather than – 

NANCY FOUTS: Which is learnt when you share your life with other people. It doesn’t always work but, you know, if it doesn’t work it’s not your fault. 

INTERVIEWER: Who’s the person or source that you’ve been the most inspired by in the way of living?

NANCY FOUTS: My parents.

INTERVIEWER: Your parents?

NANCY FOUTS: And as I said, she started off Miss Christian, Miss Southern Baptist, and then they travelled the world and, you know, they wouldn’t even drink, they would never have a drink of wine or anything, ever. And then they started [laughs], and then, you know, her friends became more international and she read better. And I think she liberated herself from the Christian upbringing which was, for me, restrictive, didn’t allow her to, sort of, bubble, love life, love life. You know, my cousins, of which I have hundreds, they’re all Bible people and so, you know, I don’t stop not showing them my Jesus things, and none of them are aggressive. One French lady whose son is married to my sister, there’s one of a Madonna with shopping bags, she’s got Jesus and then the shopping bag’s Safeway’s, you’ve seen that one? 

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yeah.

NANCY FOUTS: Oh, she said, sacrilegious.

INTERVIEWER: Really?

NANCY FOUTS: And I thought, “Why?” She probably, Virgin Mary probably had to pick up some groceries sometimes, and it doesn’t, it doesn’t make the Virgin Mary look like an idiot or a tart. And you see all those things all the time, I don’t like them, maybe that’s spiritually I don’t like them, when the make them a mousetrap or, you know, those plays, a lot of people play with it. There’s a French boy does it too, I know. 

INTERVIEWER: Yeah, yeah, I can’t remember his name actually.

NANCY FOUTS: But they’re not that good.

INTERVIEWER: No. Yeah, he plays with the spiritual world. Maybe a way of, like, best approaching the spiritual world is to have a laugh with it in order to understand the – 

NANCY FOUTS: If you go in all spiritual, you see, spiritual word keys in mystical, unknown, I don’t look at things like that, you see. And even literature, music can bring you into that kind of magic, music can hit you right away, visual things…

INTERVIEWER: The arts in general.

NANCY FOUTS: You know, the thing about going into a gallery or a museum you got there by taxi, you’ve had a coffee before you went in, you pee-peed, you’re going to have a good look, it’s set you up, like, practical, and next room, and where’s this, you know. A church might give you a better spiritual environment. You know, you go into the Vatican, it blows your mind, you go, “Oh fuck,” but that ain’t spiritual, that is… You know, and I’m often thinking it should be moving me but I’m just saying, “Who the hell built this? How the hell did they get the stone up there?” Man-made glorification. And those people, the peasants that built the churches, they were believers, they must have been, you know, and proud of their work to be giving it to the church who’s going to be here forever and a day. So I get quite moved, as I said, not by the image of a picture, but how much talent it was to make it.

INTERVIEWER: The beauty of it and the effort in it.

NANCY FOUTS: Yeah. 

INTERVIEWER: And that’s what’s spiritual.

NANCY FOUTS: That’s what’s spiritual about a masterpiece, the admiration of the guys or person who did it. And they must have had faith because I don’t know where else they could get so much potency into a work without having faith. But I’m not there.

INTERVIEWER: Well, every form of art that is truthful is there. And I think that the art that you make is truthful inherently because it comes from the depth of your emotion and your being and what you want to express. So whenever it’s truthful then that’s when it’s most powerful.

NANCY FOUTS: Put that down, put that down.

INTERVIEWER: It’s recording, yeah.

NANCY FOUTS: Oh good, say I said that because that’s it. 

INTERVIEWER: That’s it. 

NANCY FOUTS: How many artists are really, I mean, the guy that killed himself –

INTERVIEWER: Sebastian.

NANCY FOUTS: He was serious but I don’t… I like my work very much, it is truly mine, I am enjoying that I’m doing it, I’m loving the people like it, but it isn’t like serious art.

INTERVIEWER: Well, it’s serious in the sense that you believe in it and that people believe in it.

NANCY FOUTS: I do believe in it or otherwise – 

INTERVIEWER: I believe in it, like –

NANCY FOUTS: I could do, you know, but if someone said, “I want you to do that masterpiece, your most serious,” that word ‘serious’ would scare me away.